NOTES on LOWRI(Y) (LAURA) (nee Davies or Williams)( 19.5.1810 – 1.3.1890 ) ref FelRh009- Teulu Dyffryn Clwyd
13.09.02Draft E
11.4.2003 E2
Lowri was the daughter of Margaret Pritchard and David Williams, Ty Newydd Cae Glas, Croesor. She was born at Garreg Fawr (625 431) and baptised on the 19.5.1810 at Llanfrothen Church. At the same time, J.R.Jones , Ramoth lodged at Garregfawr. She was their first born and her siblings were William Davies( 1811 – 1893) (Bryn Derwen); Richard (1813 – 1882) (Holyhead); Griffith Davies(1), (1816 – 1891 ) (Felenrhyd); and Margaret ( 1817 – 1.6.1817 - 5 weeks old),, John, (USA); Dafydd & Daniel - twins Daniel died a few days old.-1820
What do we know about Lowri and her family? What follows is the order the information appeared and not the date order
Janet Elson (Brynderwen) gave the following account, which sent us on the trail:-
“I have a record of daughter Laura ( i.e. daughter Lowri of MP & DW & eldest sister of WD,RD,GD (1) &MD). I understand she lived at Dyffryn Clwyd and had two children, Maggie (Margaret)and John ( Roberts?). The latter lived at Llwyni. Maggie had a daughter, Laura, who kept a hotel at Chester” (Maggie was probably named after her grandmother Margaret Pritchard, Ffridd Uchaf, Rhyd ddu)
Sarah Davies & Mag Jones, PenrhynDD mentioned that there was a family at Dyffryn Clwyd somewhere– “Teulu Plas ‘SIORS’”! - they called them. Laura Mary Roberts Gellifor, their sister, used to visit them when she was a nurse at Llangwyfan hospital, during the 2nd war. They were not certain how they were related- may be second cousins – to whom? They were ‘cefnog’ – wealthy farmers? and that Aunty Laura, Fflint used to visit them also. They did not know how ‘SIORS’ was spelt; they had only heard their mother mention it. They thought ‘Siors’ was a version or corruption of George. Laura Mary said “that Plas Siors was a large farm near Llandyrnog. The ‘old man’ had died and Laura went there after chapel. They had a very good looking maid and they had built a bungalow for her in the grounds She was uncertain of Aunty’s name, she thought Dora. The maid was called Deborah- she married but had no children. The old lady died and she was buried at Tremeirchion Church ( OS 116/ 080 730) When ‘one of them’ died Aunty Maggie, Croesor, Aunty Laura Fflint & Elin Price? made enquiries about and got a copy of ‘his/her’ will; but Deborah got the lot!!” This is all the information we had about Lowri . We had many queries and suggestion ( see original FelRh067 LowriD.doc). Some of these have been resolved and others are still unanswered – particularly Laura –see 7 below.
Around the Ruthin, Denbigh & Henllan area there are many places called Plas or Hall. We see Plâs Chambres (048 680) ; Llwyn Ynn Hall (133 533); and Lleweni Hall (082 685). This may be Llwyni. We see Plas Siors on the left (going North) of the B5429 about 2 miles north of Gellifor and a mile south of Llandyrnog ( O.S. 116 /107 642).
A trawl through the 1881 census revealed the following when looking for a John Roberts in Denbighshire; this was the only name which we had to go by – with no dates.
Penucha ( OS 109 733or 113 728 in the district of Aberwheeler
Richard Roberts married aged 64 born at Llansanan b 1817 Farmer of 87 acres
Lora Roberts “ 69 Llanfrothen b1812( cf 1810)
John Roberts son unmarried aged 28 born at Llanfairtalhaiarn (Gravestone picture)
Elias Williams Servant 19 Llangerniew
Ann Price !! “ 28 Aberwheeler Deaf born 1853
There is no sign of Maggie ( Margaret),their daughter in the 1881 census she would be aged about 31 and possibly married.
There are two Penucha, both near to each other and not far from Tremeirchion. Penucha is about six miles north of Plas Siors.
Sheelagh found the following census details for 1861 at Aberystwyth:-
Penucha, Aberwheeler
Richard Roberts aged 45, Born at Llansanan farming 60 acre farm & employing one labourer and two boys b 1816
Lora Roberts aged 48 born at Llanfrothen b 1813
*Margaret aged 11 born at Ffestiniog Denbigh(sic) b 1850
John 8 born at Llanfairtalhaern b 1853
Sheelagh found a record of the will of John Roberts who died 5.1.1937 leaving a widow Deborah. Value of estate was £16,969.13.0. Everything was left to Deborah as an executor. The other executor was a retired banker ( Edward Griffith Jones), No indications of the marriage of John and Deborah were found in the census of 1891 & 1901
The following memorial inscriptions were also found at Tremeirchion ( See photos of two Tremeirchion gravestones - below)
m.i.118 Richard Roberts Penucha Caerwys died 6.6.1881 aged 65 ( born 1817)
Laura Roberts 1.3.1890 aged 80 ( b1810- at Garreg fawr Llanfrothen)
m.i.327 John Roberts Plas Siors Llandyrnog died 5.1.1937 aged 84 born 1853
Deborah 22.2.1953 88 “ 1865
If Richard had married when he was 27, this would be about 1844 but Margaret was not born until about 1850- Laura would be 40 years old in 1850. We should be able to find their marriage records in either Ffestiniog or Denbigh records office. No record of a marriage between Laura Davies and Richard Roberts was found at Ffestiniog in this period. However a record was found of the birth of Margaret - born at Fron Oleu ( Fron Oleu is recorded as seven abodes on the census but they have not been located as yet) - on the 10/6/1849, to a Lowry (nee Williams) and Richard Roberts (Lowry’s father was David Williams ! Her brothers had been surnamed Davies whilst she had taken the surname - Williams ) We have no idea why Laura and her husband ‘emigrated’ to Dyffryn Clwyd. He was born in Denbighshire. As they are not recorded at Ffestiniog in 1851 and John their son was born at Llanfairtalhaern in 1853, this gives the period of movement from Ffestiniog to Denbighshire.
Notes and comments
1. *She is likely to be named after her grandmother, Margaret Pritchard(Williams), (aged 71, in 1850. She could possibly be living with them at Fron Olau There is one house in Tanygrisaiu called Fron Oleu not far from Bryn Goleu Unless the whole terrace of about seven abodes was called Fron Oleu at sometime!
2. Could Margaret Pritchard gone with her eldest daughter to Denbighshire about this time .Is she buried there- I wonder ???
3. * We need to re examine the Ffestiniog marriage for a Laura(Lowry) Williams and Richard Roberts about 1848/9- noting her father as David Williams as deceased
4. Laura Mary or Janet might be able to expand on the family history.
5. There maybe a will, ca.1881, for Richard Roberts at St Asaph which might lead us to Margaret, his daughter
6. We need to look at the census of 1841 at Ffestiniog/ Llanfrothen as it is likely that Laura was not married then.
7. We also need to resolve the problem of the grandaughter Laura who had a hotel at Chester- somehow. Her time would be about 1880 to 1950
* PS Just got confirmation from a new search, that Laura Williams, the daughter of David Williams, married Richard Roberts, the son of John Roberts at St David’s Church Blaenau Ffestiniog on 2.2.1849. A copy of the Marriage certificate has been requested. RP 16.9.2002
**PPS The marriage certificate ( enclosed - p.t.o.) shows Laura’s surname as Williams and a widow! “ of full age” ( born 1810 at Garreg Fawr –39yrs old ) They both ‘live’ at Ysgaun Fawr –a.k.a Yr Wrysgafn Ysgan. David Williams is correct. Who are Thomas Rbts & David Evans? If Laura married first, aged 25 , we would expect the first marriage to be about 1835. The marriage fiche ( entry No. 222) shows a marriage between a Robert Williams and Laura Williams on 26.04.1834 at Ffestiniog. There was no entry for a Laura Williams or Davies at Llanfrothen. Were there any children ? No record of the burial of a Robert Williams could be found at Llan Ffetiniog. Llanfrothen and Ramoth has not been checked RP 19.09.2002.
There may be more details in the actual Church records at Llan Ffestiniog re the first wedding and also the baptism of the children- if any. The 1841 census may give a record of the children
The census of 1841 gives the following details:-
No 1 Wrysgafn Fawr, Tanygrisiau William Williams aged 28 Quarryman and born in County
Lowry Williams 30 “
Margaret dau. 1 “
Sheelagh and Llew added the following information 10.4.2003 from the Llanfrothen Parish Records
A) William Williams (of the parish of Festiniog) & Lowry Williams (of this parish- Llanfrothen)had married at Llanfrothen Church on 27.11.1837The witness were Wm Roberts and Richard Davies ( Lowri’s brother) A child, Robert, was born at Buarth Gwyn and baptisted 4.3.1838 at Buarth Gwyn.( Buarth Gwyn was the residence of her brother William when he married on the 13.1.1838. Was this the home of widowed Margaret Pritchard, Laura’s mother and her family; Lowri,William,Richard,Griffith, Margaret- dec.-,John, & Dafydd,? I wonder) Note that Lowry was of ‘this’ parish - of Llanfrothen in 1837 A phone call to Olwen Jones, Registrar revealed further information .Wm Williams was from Cefn Bychan Ffestiniog ( Tanygrisiau) and Lowry Williams was resident at Buarth Gwyn The parent were Rbt Willimas and David Williams ,respectively. No ages were given and the rector was Isaac Heathcote Pring It would be worth looking at 1841 census to see if Margaret Prichard/Willimasand her family isat Buarth Gwyn
B) The 1851 census for Llanfairtalhearn ( township of Cynnant – a Farm called Cynnant Ganol ( OS. 922 721 between Llanfaitarhaern and Bettws yn Rhos give
Richard Roberts head 34 farmer of 23 acres & born at Llansanan
Lowri Roberts wife 39 “ Llanfrothen
David Williams son 9 From the first Marriage to William Williams – born 1842
Hugh Williams son 7 “ both born at Ffestiniog born 1844
Margaret Williams dau. 1 born at Ffestiniog
Thomas Roberts brother 37 widowed and a lodger born at Llansanan
Joseph Roberts “ 22 unmarr. and an agri. Worker born at Llansanan
(John Roberts was not born until 1853 )
Where did David and Hugh go to ? We need to look for them in the 1881 census.
DW could be the father of DDW (1862 – 1937)- aged 20!!!
C) A child, Owen, was born to William Williams and Lowri Williams at Ysgafn Fawr in 1843 but died 6 weeks old. There is no head stone or other record.
D) A note of the will of Deborah Roberts was found - Value was £ 27,000.( gone up from the figure of £ 17,000 in 1937 - see above) The executor was as above. To whom did the estate go ? A copy is sought. This might indicate the beneficiaries . It could also lead us to Margaret ( nee Roberts) and Laura with the Chester Hotel.
Visit to Dyffryn Clwyd April 2003
1. 1871 census for Aberwheeler (RG10/5666):- 111 Penucha Pownall 112 Penucha Richard Roberts, age 54 farmer of 67 acres, born at Llansanan: Laura 58 & born at Llanfrothen; John 18 & born at Llanfairtalhearn; Margaret Jones 15 servant; - 113 Penucha Jones
2. There are 4 places called Penucha betweeen Tremeirchion and Caerwys a) at 092 733, about 1 km east of Tremeirchion b) 109 733 Penucha Pellaf 2.7 km east of TreM with c ) Plas Penucha at about the same place. d)113 726 Penucha about 3.1 km east of TreM. b),c) & d) are on the same yellow road a kilometre apart and in the parish of Caerwys. We are uncertain whether they lived at b)or d) in 1861/71 but they were at Caerwys Parish when he died in 1882 see m.i.
3. In 1871 Miriam & Wm. Foulkes (47,57) lived at Plas Siors (95 acres) with their six children
4. Spoke (on the phone with Mrs Owen –nee Griffith of Criafol/Speddyd farm Llandyrnog)(this must have been Tesmi Owem who had written to Janet Elson as their story corresponded. Speddyd farm is adjacent to Plas Siors and Mrs owen (nee Griffiths ) was born ,1927, and brought up there
5. She was a little girl when she remembers John Roberts talking over the hedge- a kind and lovely man. She thought he committed suicide- before the war. No died of natural causes.
6. There was a maid called Deborah who married at Llangynhafal. When Mrs Roberts died, Stanley Weyman bought the farm for £8,000- She thought Grace Jones ( 74) who lives at Cerrig Llwydion Council house, would know more(01824 790 589) as her father was a chauffer at Cerrig Llwydion Hall and he used to have a lot to do with Plas Siors
7. I spoke to Grace Jones over the phone ( incidentally, Grace knows Laura Mary Roberts,Gellifor very well) She was certain the maid was called Deborah. She married Aneurin Jones Lodge. She has died.. They were related to I.T.Williams (Skips) 01824 702323/705944
8. Her father, who died in 1961 used to go there and do a few odd repair jobs and he used to cut their hair
9. John Rees, not related, used to be a companion/bailiff to Mrs Roberts. He made stools for her and her sisters when they were about 5/3yrs J.Rees’s family live at Cefn meiriog farm near St Asaph OS 315 721 She has seen a photo of Jon Rees at Plas Siors
10. She remembers Mrs Deborah Rbts as a very dear person who did a lot of home cooking
11. She remembered Plas Siors with a big duck pond in front of the house.
12. She knew nothing about John Roberts sister, Margaret, and the hotel at Chester
Events in order of dates:-
19.05.1810 Lowry William (Dafydd) dau. of Mgt Pritchard & Dafydd William of Garreg Fawr baptised at Llanfrothen Church
1821 Was aged 11 when her father died - at Ty Newydd Caeglas, Croesor, the eldest of 8 children aged 11 to 1
1.0 27.11 1837 Lowry Wms, from Buarth Gwyn, marries William Williams at Llanfrothen church ( for details see above)
1.1 04.03.1838 Robert - son of Lowry and William Williams of Buarth gwyn baptised
1.2 1840 dau Margaret(1) born
1841 CENSUS (see above)
1.3 1842 son David born at Ffestiniog (TyG) living at Llanfairtalhearn in 1851
1.4 01.02.1843 son Owen born at Ysgafnfawr - died 6 weeks old
1.5 1844 son Hugh Born at Ffestiniog and was living at Llafair talhearn in 1851
No baptismal records found at Llanfrothen- may be chapel goers or Baptised at Llan Ffestiniog
1.6 06.05.1845 father Wm Williams died no grave stone found age 31
1.7 01.07.1845 dau Margaret (1) died “ “ age 5
2.0 02.02.1849 Lowry Williams (widow) marries Richard Roberts at St David’s Church Blaenau Ffestiniog
2.1 10.06.1849 dau. Margaret (2) born at Fron Oleu Tanygrisiau
1850 Family moves to Llanfairtalhearn about this time. Possibly Cynnant Ganol O.S.922 721
1851 CENSUS (see above)
2.2 1853 son John born at Llanfairtalhearn Denbighshire
1861 CENSUS (see above)
1871 “ “
1881 “ “
2.4 06.06.1882 father Robert Roberts died at Penucha, Caerwys aged 65 (m.i.118 Tremeirchion)
2.5 01.03.1890 mother Lowry died aged 80
2.6 05.01.1937 son John Roberts of Plas Siors died aged 84 (m.i. 327)
2.7 22.03,1953 dau in law Deborah died 88
2.8 ??? dau Margaret (2) Laura Chester Hotel ?
Plas Siors, Llandyrnog,
Denbighshire OS109 543
cc Sheelagh, Janet, Edgar
Addendum:-
· The will of Deborah Roberts (died 1953) obtained- gives the names of 36 beneficiaries relatives, friend & establishment. Total distribution nearly £27,000 - Sheelagh
· The marriage certificate of John Roberts to Deborah Foulkes . (1886) obtained by Sheelagh
· Family of Deborah identified- her parent were Ann & Peter Foulkes - Sheelagh
· Death Cert. Of John Roberts showed he died of natural causes.- Sheelagh
· Spoke with Helen of Dyffryn Clwyd
· Write to Eirlys Roberts & Bobi Morris Roberts